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Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 8:16 pm
by L60Boerne
Thanks Justin, I was not able to make those work via my monkey mechanics. :cry: I think I bought three and have given them all away.

We used the winch to hoist a really nice axis buck over a fence :shhh: Used a high tree limb to throw the cable over. It was a great mechanical feat...just no pictures. :doh:

I have my main master mechanic monkey on it. Actually he is a super nice guy and always willing to help. :pray: I guess I'm a bit bitter as it I'd prefer he fixed things with the rifle approach rather than the shotgun. He hasn't reported back but it might be a blown fuse. There seems to be a suspect jumper hooked into the fuse box. :o It did "pop" as it let loose.

It may not the starter. More to follow :violin: ...and thanks as usual. :clap:

Patrolling to repairs,
L60Boerne

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:42 pm
by plateaucal
David,

Does the starter spin slowly or not at all. ? Does the solenoid kick in? The answer to those question may help with the rifle approach. Starters are darned simple and it is usually easy to diagnose them. You may want to try jumping the starter direct from the battery.

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:53 am
by L60Boerne
Thanks Plateaucal,

Three more clues are;
a). it clicks when you push the starter
b). It can be pull started
c). The battery is charged and the wiring was really hot leading to the fuse box. I asked #2 which wire was hot and where it came/went and did not get a straight answer.

Regardless of all this the starter was dragging really bad when I pushed the starter button. That needs to be fixed at some point as well.

Patrolling with small problems,
L60Boerne

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:57 am
by plateaucal
There are usually only three things that go wrong with a starter. Bushings, brushes and the solenoid (especially the contactor). Since the solenoid is clicking that is good.

If the contactor in the solenoid is working you should see a good voltage drop when attempting to start which means current is flowing to the starter.

Then the problem comes down to bad bushings or brushes. A large voltage drop but no spin would indicate bad bushings. Try banging on the side of the starter to see if helps. This might temporarily prevent the armature and stator from grounding and allow the starter to spin. It may also loosen the worn brushes and allow contact with the commutator.

As far as the hot wire, that could be bad connections. The same thing happened to me and the same result as well! Just the starter solenoid clicking. You can try bypassing the starter button circuit by jumpering from battery connection on the starter to the solenoid wire connection to test. Check for corrosion on connections. There should be a wire from the fuse box to the push button. And another wire from the push button to starter.

Regardless, I always bring questionable starters and alternators to a "Starter and Alternator Shop". They have the tools to diagnose and repair starters. All towns should have one, even little Montrose. Regular mechanics replace stuff, they usually don't fix them.

My recollection from driving Santa led me to believe your bushings were bad. I remember a large voltage drop but no start. The thing is, this problem may be intermittent for a long time before the bushings are just "done for".

Anyway, maybe some the great sages will also ring in on this.

Here is nice illustrated tutorial for you.

https://www.howacarworks.com/ignition-s ... or-brushes

Your starter should look like illustration 1.

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 8:11 am
by plateaucal
Looking at the parts catalog, it appears that the brushes are accessible or inspectable from a cover on the exterior of the starter.

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:13 am
by moore_rb
L60Boerne wrote:Thanks Plateaucal,

Three more clues are;
a). it clicks when you push the starter
b). It can be pull started
c). The battery is charged and the wiring was really hot leading to the fuse box. I asked #2 which wire was hot and where it came/went and did not get a straight answer.

Regardless of all this the starter was dragging really bad when I pushed the starter button. That needs to be fixed at some point as well.


a) means the solenoid is probably working fine
b) means the ignition system is ok
c) goes hand in hand with the blown "add on" wire

Heat is the power by-product of resistance to current flow. Power either: 1) makes the starter work, or 2) gets lost as heat energy.

the dragging starter also goes with C, and tells me you have a high resistance issue in the system- Plateaucal has covered all the bases inside the starter itself, except one: The main shaft has to be able to spin freely within the case bearings. I have "resurrected" many slow turning, high effort starters through the years with little more than a couple strategic squirts of wd40 on both ends of the main shaft, and on the jump gear. If all the moving parts in the starter can move freely and easily, then they will require less power/current from the battery to do their job.

also, make sure the starter is properly grounded- There should be a fat ground wire going from the solenoid to the starter housing, and a second ground strap or wire going from the starter housing, to a cleaned off spot on the truck's frame. DON'T rely on the starter's mounting bolts to provide adequate ground- give the starter coils a free path to the negative battery cable via the truck's frame

lastly - check the condition of the positive battery cable itself, and the connectors at both ends. Did the positive cable also get hot when you tried to crank it?

this "add on wire" might be a jumper that is bypassing the starter relay from the starter button, which would be BAD, because the starter button is not supposed to handle the full amperage necessary to engage the solenoid plunger- That's what the relay is there for. ;)

Starter wiring is the 2nd most complicated circuit on these old trucks (turn signals are number 1 8-) ) - The starter system is a sequence of cascading switches: key energizes starter button, starter button energizes the "weak side" of the starter relay, so that the "strong side" of the starter relay can supply battery voltage to the starter solenoid, until starter solenoid snaps shut making the *click" that you hear, which provides full, unencumbered battery cranking amperage directly to the starter motor (assuming the other side of the motor coils are properly grounded back to the negative)

When it's all working, nothing should get hot, and that electric motor should be able to turn the engine until either a spark plug fires, or the battery runs out of juice.

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:25 am
by plateaucal
And to clarify, the problem I had with mine was voltage drop to the solenoid due to corroded connection. It would operate the solenoid but not enough to engage the starter except once in a while. Not until after my starter mechanic proclaimed that all was well with the starter did I look for other causes.

Ultimately, your starter should be repairable and a little inspection of all your wiring and and connections are warranted.

Re: L60Boerne's Santa's Sleigh

PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2020 10:41 am
by L60Boerne
Thank you, I'm getting this info out to our mechanic right now.