What to do about rust....?

Posts by members with instructions on how to do certain mechanical projects.

Postby moore_rb » Wed Dec 03, 2014 9:58 pm

Ok, at the request of Esteban and JWGreen, I am starting this thread as a discussion on dealing with rust (removal, control, and prevention) on our Patrols.

I'll kick off the thread by sharing my own research and personal experiences, and hope that others will chime in with their own methods and preferences...

First off, just like with any aspect of the automotive hobby, there are often many different ways to achieve a desired goal; and usually, people (men especially) like to argue that "their way" is the best way (go visit the H.A.M.B. forum on jalopyjournal.com sometime and read some of the egos over there- some of those guys are brutal :lol: ) I don't really like to argue (however, I do love to debate 8-) ) -

so, back to rust - there are many ways to deal with it, and I think each method has certain pros and cons based on:

1) the size of the part being de-rusted
2) the severity of the rust (light surface rust, versus deep, pitting or cancerous rust)
3) the primary agent that is causing the rust (we all know water/moisture is the key ingredient, but there are chemicals that accelerate rust, and then bond to the metal, just waiting to be re-activated again later (IE: road salt, sodium chloride)

The rust treatment methods I have used can be broken down into 4 categories:

1) Mechanical removal - applying sandpaper, abrasives, and good old fashioned elbow grease.
advantages: easy, usually inexpensive (except sandblasting, which requires a sandblaster, or taking the part to a specialty shop). Total rust removal, leaves a rough surface for primers/paints/coatings to adhere to, good exercise
disadvantages: time consuming, sometimes difficult to get into deeper crevices and inside hollow pieces, since it physically removes (strips away) the rust, it may leave pits, pin holes, and other surface defects in the steel, messy (expect to be covered with rust powder, dirt, and blasting media when you're done 8-)

Examples: wire brushes, sandpaper, media blasting

2) Chemical removal - using chemicals (typically acidic compounds) to remove the rust
advantages: speedy, most products are inexpensive, parts can be soaked to pull rust from deeper areas and inside hollow parts
disadvantages: caustic, toxic chemical exposure, parts are prone to "flash re-rusting" if not primed, painted or coated right away, many chemicals (as well as road salt) contain chlorine, which bonds to the steel, and is one of the WORST rust activating agents there is, so while you think you are de-rusting the part, you might actually be setting the stage for the rust to come back even worse later on.

Examples: Vinegar, Phosphoric acid, pool acid (the worst option imaginable, BTW, due to the chlorine factor- see above), CLR, Zeps rust remover

3) Chemical conversion via chelation- Using commercial products that "convert" the rust into inert compounds that can then be primed, painted or coated
advantages: ease of use - apply the product, and give it time to do its work, parts can be soaked, allowing rust control inside hollow and deep areas, one of the "old school" favorite chelators (molasses solution) is cheap, enviro-friendly- most chelating compounds are biodegradable and can be poured onto your lawn after use, most chelating compounds will also counter-act any residual chlorine bound to the steel
disadvantages: slow. parts may have to soak for weeks for rust removal to be total and complete, messy, impractical for large parts.

Examples: Eastwood rust converter, Eastwood rust encapsulator, Evapo-Rust, molasses and water (5:1 to 10:1 ratio, water to molasses)

3) Electrolysis - using electrical current to convert the rust within an electrolyte solution (usually washing soda and water)
advantages: "true and complete" rust removal - the reactive rust compound is actually replaced on the part with a dark gray, inert form of iron oxide called hematite (or magnetite) that can be primed, painted, or coated just as native steel, parts are soaked in electrolyte, so the rust treatment is complete inside all hollow and deep contoured areas. enviro friendly - as long as you keep stainless steel out of the electrolyte, it can be disposed of by pouring onto your lawn (stainless steel contains chromium, and in the presence of electrolysis , this will create toxic chromate compounds that are very dangerous- if your electrolyte turns yellow, then DON'T dispose of it by pouring it onto the ground). lower risk of re-rusting due to inert iron oxide coating, attacks any residual chlorine ions that are bonded to the steel for a longer term rust-proof part
disadvantgaes: requires specialty equipment; although the method I have used with success, (and is greatly detailed in the link I provided below) can be set up with a plastic container, a battery charger, and some sacrificial steel rods or rebar, impractical for large parts (like frames and body panels)

Here are some great links for reading more about Electrolysis and Chelation methods:

Electrolysis: http://1bad6t.com/rust_removal.html

Chelation: http://www.worldradiomagazine.com/old_wro/articles/columns/wp0906/wp0906.html

So, now that you've chosen and applied whatever method you are going to use to remove (or convert) the rust, what to do next...? How do you keep the part protected to prevent the rust from coming back?

Again, there are as many options as there are opinions about which option is best, so I'm going to share my viewpoints, without making any claims that any of my preferences are "the best way" - just like with rust treatment and removal, I think each option has pros and cons, and therefore it comes down to personal choice.

When the rust removal process has left a nice, rough surface with "bite" (especially after media blasting or manual sanding) my personal favorite next step would be the application of an epoxy based primer (like PPG DP series primers)- the primer dries flat, and can be top-coated in any color with many commercial paints (urethanes and enamels)

If you used a rust converter product, or used the electrolysis method, then your part will already have a nice flat black oxide finish that can be primed, or painted directly.

It is also possible to combine several processes together, as I did on the frame of my 65 hardtop- I stripped the rusty frame down with a wire wheel, smoothed some rough areas with a sanding disk, and then coated the frame with Eastwood Rust Converter to take care of all the residual rust that was left by the wire wheel and sandpaper. On top of the Rust Converter, I will paint the chassis with several coats of gloss black Rustoleum enamel, which has been a 20+ year favorite topcoat of mine for chassis components.

Another commonly used product is POR15 chassis black coating. I know a lot of folks swear by this product, but I have found the following 3 tradeoffs to be personally undesirable:

1) POR15, like epoxy primer, really likes a rough surface to "bite" - I have had issues with POR15 lifting after a couple years, when applied over smoother surface finishes
2) POR15 is thick- if you leave any components bolted to the frame when you paint it, the POR15 "seals" the bolt heads in place, and when/if you go to remove the bolts later, they chip the finish, which again opens the door to the risk of the finish flaking off.
3) POR15 is about 4x more expensive than Rustoleum 8-)

Again, I don't mean to be offending anyone- if you use and love POR15, then I am perfectly cool with that :ugeek:

One last important point to consider with regards to rust is the vehicle's "living environment" - down where I am in the arid southwest, cars don't rust naturally- you have to really work at getting the rust started :lol: and so- There are certain aspects of these rust treatment methods that may be more than adequate for down here, but would be totally inefficient up in New England.
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L-R:
White 65 Hardtop L60-3-00617 (undergoing restoration)
Red 65 hardtop 4L60-002565 (scrapped for parts)
66 Hardtop "El-Bondo Patrol", L60-00511 (Restored, then sold June2020)
Blue 67 Hardtop (sold March1997)
Green 62 Softtop L60-2-00504 (undergoing restoration)
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Postby jwgreen » Wed Dec 03, 2014 10:21 pm

That's it Robert, we are no longer Patrol buddies :evil:













:lol: :lol: Just kidding. I always use there pretreatment stuff, I forget the proper name atm, and I usually don't preassemble stuff. Also none of my stuff has been painted for years yet so I guess we shall see. The one big thing I like about it is that the stuff is really hard and doesn't scratch or chip hardly at all. Just my humble opinion. 8-)
Justin
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Postby moore_rb » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:43 am

jwgreen wrote:That's it Robert, we are no longer Patrol buddies :evil:

:lol: :lol: Just kidding. I always use there pretreatment stuff, I forget the proper name atm, and I usually don't preassemble stuff. Also none of my stuff has been painted for years yet so I guess we shall see. The one big thing I like about it is that the stuff is really hard and doesn't scratch or chip hardly at all. Just my humble opinion. 8-)


:crying-yellow: Don't hate me Justin... :lol:

You do make an excellent point in favor of POR15- That stuff is like armour when it cures, and that can bring a lot of advantages, especially for an off-road vehicle that is going to get exposed to flying rocks and gravel from dirt roads, or bashed on the big rocks out on the trail. :handgestures-thumbup:

Another "thick, armour like" option I didn't talk about above is powder coating - a lot of guys swear by powder coating as well, but an interesting, non 4x4 related story kind of turned me off to the thicker, more permanent chassis coatings: About 5 years ago I towed my boat over to San Diego for a weekend of Albacore fishing, and on the boat ramp was a guy that had an older steel boat trailer that had totally collapsed- the main frame rails had just folded and crunched. The guy was telling a bunch of us that it gave no warning- it just suddenly let go. As I looked it over, I noticed that on either side of the failure area, the powder coat still looked smooth and pristine- the powder coat was actually still preserving the shape of the original frame rail - the steel had just turned to dust from the inside-out.

Now, granted- car frames don't get dunked in the ocean like a boat trailer does, but some areas do use so much road salt that vehicles are subjected to similar levels of salt exposure - I'd rather know that the part is rusting, and have to go through the entire restoration procedure again, than be tricked into thinking that everything is good, when it's not good at all below the surface.. again, just my personal viewpoint.
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L-R:
White 65 Hardtop L60-3-00617 (undergoing restoration)
Red 65 hardtop 4L60-002565 (scrapped for parts)
66 Hardtop "El-Bondo Patrol", L60-00511 (Restored, then sold June2020)
Blue 67 Hardtop (sold March1997)
Green 62 Softtop L60-2-00504 (undergoing restoration)
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Postby Swerve » Thu Dec 04, 2014 6:05 pm

I also used POR15, we are no longer friends :lol:

Good stuff in my opinion
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Postby 50car » Thu Dec 04, 2014 8:21 pm

Its all good discussion. At this time I am comtemplating which direction to go... POR15, powder coating or do I just buy a can of shiney black rustoleum and coat the thing after getting it sand blasted... hmmmmmmm decisions decisions.,...
Jeff
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Postby moore_rb » Thu Dec 04, 2014 10:18 pm

Swerve wrote:I also used POR15, we are no longer friends :lol:


We were no longer friends the second you sold your show Patrol... :twisted:

8-) 8-) 8-)
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L-R:
White 65 Hardtop L60-3-00617 (undergoing restoration)
Red 65 hardtop 4L60-002565 (scrapped for parts)
66 Hardtop "El-Bondo Patrol", L60-00511 (Restored, then sold June2020)
Blue 67 Hardtop (sold March1997)
Green 62 Softtop L60-2-00504 (undergoing restoration)
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Postby moore_rb » Sun Mar 22, 2015 12:37 pm

This morning I was cleaning up some hardware, and thought I'd post some before and after shots that show the results of some of the rust treatment methods we've described in this thread.

The before pic shows these bolts as they came off the Patrols:

CAM00635_zpsf36bd01f.jpg


I soaked the bolts in degreaser for about 3 days ( I use the yellow stuff from Harbor freight, diluted 50-50 with water), then I rinsed them with the hose and a high-pressure nozzle, then they went into a 2-week molasses soak (10:1 water to molasses)

They come out of the molasses all black from the molasses chelation process, so I rinsed them again under the hose, dried them in the sun for a couple hours, and ran them for 2 hours through my vibrating tumbler with walnut shell. Here is how they look now- I'm holding an example of each bolt type so you can see them in detail:

CAM00775.jpg


You can still see traces of the black oxide (converted rust) on several of the bolts- these were areas where the rust was really "dug in" - The yellowish residue in the threads is just powder from the walnut shell media- I could probably re-clean these in my tumbler with silica sand and get them a little bit shinier, but the bolts are smooth, clean, grease and rust free, and would hold paint just fine as they are now.

My next step will be to run all these through a cleaning die to restore the threads before I re-use them on the trucks, and some of these bolts will not even make it to that step- the threads are trashed on several of them, and those will be tossed.

.....

So, here's the back story on how I learned these techniques: Back in the early 90's when I was a mechanic for GM, one of our senior technicians was a Willy's Jeep fan, and he was restoring a Ford GPW (the version of the Willy's Jeep that was built by Ford under license during WWII, since Willy's could not meet the total military demand).

The Ford version of the WWII Jeeps is the version most sought after by collectors today, because Ford took the extra step to stamp an "F" logo into every single metal part on the entire truck- nuts, bolts, even the engine and transmission internal parts, are all designated with an "F" if if left a Ford factory.

The parts were 100% interchangeable between a Willy's MB and a Ford GPW, but only the parts made in Ford factories have the F stamped on them.

Obviously, after the Jeeps left the factories, the parts would get swapped and mismatched by Army mechanics as needed, in order to keep as many Jeeps running as possible through the war (and later in Korea).

So, for guys like my friend back in the 90's, restoring a Ford Jeep was/is a million times more challenging, due to having to source only parts stamped with the "F" - I remember him telling me that he once purchased an entire Jeep from across the country, just because it had one single "F" part that he needed for his project. He was the one that taught me about using molasses on rusty hardware.

Today, a fully and correctly restored Ford GPW will bring 3-4 times what a comparable Willy's MB can bring at auction.

So, so any of you who think I'm crazy to go through all this extra effort to reclaim this original "dp" hardware: Yes, you are right- I am nuts (and bolts :ugeek: ); but I learned the trade from someone far crazier than I...

...I mean, there is no way I would purchase an entire Patrol, and pay to ship it cross country, just for a couple bolts... hahahah 8-) 8-) 8-)
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L-R:
White 65 Hardtop L60-3-00617 (undergoing restoration)
Red 65 hardtop 4L60-002565 (scrapped for parts)
66 Hardtop "El-Bondo Patrol", L60-00511 (Restored, then sold June2020)
Blue 67 Hardtop (sold March1997)
Green 62 Softtop L60-2-00504 (undergoing restoration)
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Postby faux40 » Sun Mar 22, 2015 3:33 pm

That is cool! By the way, I have this patrol with a bunch of really clean bolts on it... you know, it has the one or two bolts that you DON'T have yet. Interested? ;-)
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