Starter

Won't run? Engine, cooling system, fuel pump, carb, clutch, tranny, brakes, etc. The old messages from the NPCA 'Engine & Mechanical' category are here.

Postby Esteban » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:29 pm

There's a lot of information scattered about starters in the forum, to the point that it's difficult to find a meaningful answer. Maybe we should address them here. Member mtnPatrol has asked some questions regarding dismantling the starter to do some maintenance and polish the commutator. Please feel free to comment your own experiences, and tips, and make corrections to this notes, since it will help all of us.

mtnPatrol wrote:I have the starter off the Patrol and have begun tearing it down to service. However, I can't figure out how to remove the armature bearing in order to remove the armature. I don't want to destroy the bearing. The only thing I can really do as it sits is polish the commutator.

The engine service manual recommends changing brushings under 1/2". Two of my four are 7/16". The other two are 1/2". I imagine with new starters available for $100 once you start replacing parts you might as well get a new starter?

A couple of other things. In the service manual, disassembly starts with removal of the head cover. When the manual references head, is that what faces the front of the car? Also, is the head cover the thin plate at the very end/head or is it the approximately 1 1/2" wide housing which holds the brushes. I thought the end/head cap should come off but both pieces came off together. The end cap looks to be rusted so maybe that's why it didn't come off.


The few times that I have taken apart the starter motor, was before I had a Service Manual or Parts Manual in front of me. After looking at the Manual, this seems to be one of those instances that it's probably better no to have a manual, since the instructions are the most incoherent ones that I've seen (this are for the starter in use up to Feb-74). The following is a quote from the Nissan Engine Model P Service Manual with some typos corrected:

1. Removal
1) Remove the starter pedal and remove starter motor from engine.
2) Loosen two through screws and remove head cover.
3) Remove armature shaft center bearing and pull out armature.
4) Remove shift lever from head cover.
5) Remove pinion and clutch assembly.
6) Remove foot switch.


I don't have a clue what the starter pedal or the foot switch are. Head cover is confusing and not in tune with the parts manual. Please refer to the following picture from the 1973 Parts Manual. I have added the name of some of the components:

Starter - Hitachi 1KW.jpg


What I have done to dismantle, and by referring to the above picture is the following:

1) Disconnect Battery
2) Disconnect wire terminals at starter
3) Remove two bolts securing starting motor to transmission case. Pull starter assembly forward and remove starting motor (from 78 manual)
4) Remove two screws (#30) securing magnetic switch assembly (#17) and remove magnetic switch or solenoid.
5) Remove pin securing shift lever (#26) (this will allow later for pulling the entire assembly from the gear case #22)
6) Loosen two through screws (#21) and remove rear cover (#24) (shown with dust band that covers holes)
7) Pull out from the gear case (#22) the following simultaneously: the armature assembly (#2), center bearing plate (#6), shift lever (#26)

If cleaning and oiling the bearings again is only needed, it's probably all that needs to take place. Greasing the tracks of the Bendix can also be accomplished, as well as checking the wear conditions of the bearings, specially the outer ones, #12 and #23. It will be great if somebody can post the measurements of these bearings. Please note that there's also a center bearing. Unique to the Patrol and probably explains how long this starters last. If you want to continue dismantling:

8) Remove pinion stopper (#5) located at the end of armature shaft. To remove stopper, first move stopper toward pinion and after removing stopper clip, remove stopper with overrunning clutch assembly (bendix) from armature shaft. (copied from 78 Manual)

At this point, the typical checks of a starter motor can be done and follow the Service Manual. This will be a good time to polish the commutator by hand. I have done it with 600 grade wet sandpaper.

Edit: I found the following that needs to be mentioned:
The name Bendix gear strictly applies to the spiral drive mechanism of an inertia-type starter. However, the term is sometimes used for the pre-engaged starter mechanism.
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Postby RiverPatrol » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:28 pm

Excellent Esteban! I made this a Sticky. :clap: :clap: :clap:
Beyond any hope for intervention

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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:53 am

I'm in the middle of disassembling my starter for service. While following the Engine Service Manual I became stuck on step #3, removing the armature shaft center bearing. I don't see how to get in there to remove the bearing located in the center of the base of the armature. You can see that bearing here:

IMG_20160302_212020.jpg


Using Esteban's excellent guide, I also removed the solenoid and shift lever pin. Still, I cannot remove the armature assembly. It seems as though it is getting hung up on the shift lever. I haven't given it a good tug. Maybe that is what it needs??? However, I don't see how the shift lever can possibly pull out with the armature, through the gear case. It sits a good 1 1/2" above the gear case. See here:

IMG_20160302_211941.jpg


The pinion stopper, pinion, and center bearing plate are not seized and move on the shaft. See them here:

IMG_20160302_211811.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:06 am

Is it possible for the rubber dust cover, the black rubber piece at the base of the solenoid housing in picture #2, to be causing an issue? As you can see, that piece wraps over the front lip but it also wraps down over the back lip. That is listed as part #34 in the 1971 parts manual and #25 (one of two parts) in the 1973 parts manual.
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Postby Esteban » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:19 am

mtnPatrol wrote:... I also removed the solenoid and shift lever pin. Still, I cannot remove the armature assembly. It seems as though it is getting hung up on the shift lever. I haven't given it a good tug. Maybe that is what it needs??? However, I don't see how the shift lever can possibly pull out with the armature, through the gear case. It sits a good 1 1/2" above the gear case. See here:

IMG_20160302_211941.jpg


In your second picture, in front of the shift lever there's a rubber piece that's covering the opening in the gear case. That's preventing the shift lever from coming straight out with the armature assembly. It's probably stuck after so many years. Make sure that the pin where the shift lever pivots is removed.

Finally we're getting some pictures of an opened starter. This will definitely help others.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:13 pm

Does that rubber dust cover attach to the lever in any way or does it just sit over the lip of the housing? Does it normally come out when removing the armature assembly, do you manually remove it, or does it stay in place?

Pin is removed and the lever pulls up and pushes down a bit.
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Postby Esteban » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:21 pm

The rubber dust cover just sits over the housing. Pry it out with something. Once it's out, the whole armature assembly including the shift lever should come out.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:37 pm

Here is a closer view of the end of the armature assembly (the end toward the rear cover). Protruding from the gear case you can see at the center, around the shaft, what looks to be a bearing. Around it is the commutator.

IMG_20160302_194751.jpg


Here is looking down into the rear cover. The brushings are the four little rectangles you see. They are screwed onto springed levers. At the very center is a bearing which is pressed into the housing. If you look down to the end of the hole you see the rear cover.

IMG_20160302_194637.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:49 pm

Here are some measurements I have taken.

Nose Bearing (#23)
    OD - 5/8
    ID - 1/2

Rear Bearing (#12)
    OD - 23/32
    ID - 19/32

Both bearings have a 1/16" thick wall.

Brushings (#16)
3/4" Height x 1/4" Length x ?Width (mine have worn to 7/16"-1/2") - Measurements as if looking at them from where they face the armature.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:51 pm

Esteban wrote:The rubber dust cover just sits over the housing. Pry it out with something. Once it's out, the whole armature assembly including the shift lever should come out.


Will do.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:21 pm

It looks like I will ruin the rubber dust cover if I attempt to pry it out. Because the starter works (mostly) and I don't have a replacement seal I'm hesitant to do so.

I want to make sure that you are saying the shift lever will pull out of the gear case along with the armature assembly while the gear case REMAINS attached to the nose housing. I don't see how it is possible. It looks like the shift lever would be removed once the gear case is separated from the nose housing. Then you would take out the rubber dust seal and rotate it forward and pull it out. The hole in the gooseneck in the solenoid housing appears top small for the top of the lever to slide down through while the gear case and nose housing remain attached.
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Postby Esteban » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:18 pm

mtnPatrol wrote:It looks like I will ruin the rubber dust cover if I attempt to pry it out. Because the starter works (mostly) and I don't have a replacement seal I'm hesitant to do so.

I want to make sure that you are saying the shift lever will pull out of the gear case along with the armature assembly while the gear case REMAINS attached to the nose housing. I don't see how it is possible. It looks like the shift lever would be removed once the gear case is separated from the nose housing. Then you would take out the rubber dust seal and rotate it forward and pull it out. The hole in the gooseneck in the solenoid housing appears top small for the top of the lever to slide down through while the gear case and nose housing remain attached.


If ain't broken... You are probably right. Sometimes we end up doing more damage than good. It all depends on the condition of the Gear Case bearing. The bearing in the Brush Cap you probably can check its condition and wear. Otherwise, take the time to oil these two bearings and polish the commutator. Your brushes don't look that bad so it's probably better to leave them. The center bearing is probably inaccessible at this point.

To clarify your other concern, if you take the rubber dust cover, all of these components will come off as a unit (they will slide out of the gear case):
- armature
- bendix
- shift lever

Edit:
The following is the exploded view from the 1971 Parts Manual that mtnPatrol has been using and is referring in his writing:

Starter - Hitachi 1KW- ISO Thread.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 6:56 pm

Here is how I disassembled my starter.

My starter is an Hitachi. It has ISO on it and the 1971 Parts Manual lists both an Hitachi and Hitachi ISO starter, so I assume it is an Hitachi ISO. My part numbers below will be from that section of the manual.

My goal was to have access to the armature assembly and brushes to do a light service and assessment. My starter was working but a good percentage of the time turning the key leads to a grinding sound. I was hopeful but not optimistic that a light service would correct the issue.

I initially attempted to follow the Model P Engine Service Manual and then tried Esteban's method. In the end, this is how I was able to get at the armature assembly. Essentially, it required an almost complete disassembly. I couldn't see a less involved method.

1. Remove two through bolts (#43) and remove rear cover (#20). (note: I had to use a rubber mallet to separate)
2. Remove two bolts (#49) holding solenoid to the housing gooseneck. Remove the solenoid (#51). (note: there is a little t that sits in a cradle so the solenoid doesn't pull straight out)
3. Remove cotter pin (#41) and then the shift lever pin(#41).
4. Start separating the nose housing from the main housing. )(note: I had to use a rubber mallet to separate. At this point, the legs of the shift lever (#39) are still riding on the pinion sleeve (#56). )
5. Remove the rubber dust cover (#36). (note: I was able to do this by grabbing the bottom of the shift lever through the opening between the nose and main housings and the top of the shift lever through the gooseneck. I then pulled it through the rubber dust cover, which just popped out.
6. Remove the nose housing.
7. Lift the shift lever off the pinion sleeve.
8. Remove the pinion stopper washer (#9).
9. Remove the pinion stopper clip (#8). (note:this is a bear. It is a tiny and stout clip which is not completely exposed. I bent a carbon steel pick working on it. )
10. Slide the pinion stopper (#7) off the front of the shaft. (note: the pinion stopper didn't want to slide over the little ridge. I filed some areas where I had dinged it up trying to remove the clip. I think if I continued that route it would have come off but I put a pulley puller on it to pull it off.)
11. Slide the pinion and clutch assembly (#32) and the center bearing (#30) off the front of the shaft. (note: it rotates as it slides off)
12. Pull the armature assembly out of the main housing.

Where the shift lever pulls through the housing (nose housing on the left and gooseneck on the right). The rubber dust cover in my fingers sat in the channel above it :

IMG_20160303_153044.jpg


The pinion stopper washer:

IMG_20160303_154327.jpg


The pinion stopper clip:

IMG_20160303_154351.jpg


The pinion stopper parts (washer, clip, stopper):

IMG_20160303_171040.jpg


The pinion assembly with the shift lever set on the pinion sleeve:

IMG_20160303_165332.jpg


The inside of the main housing with view of the field coil assembly:

IMG_20160303_165646.jpg


The long-awaited freed armature assembly:

IMG_20160303_165850.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:08 pm

Esteban wrote:If ain't broken... You are probably right. Sometimes we end up doing more damage than good.


Well, I darn sure gave it my best shot to break it!

To my untrained eye the starter looks pretty good. I did find a 2" piece of pinion sleeve spring 2 (#53) broken off. I wonder if that is the source of my problems. Maybe something to do with the spring not always winding enough to engage the pinion. Though, I would think that it would happen all of the time. Any idea if it is replaceable?

Part # 23443-43600.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 7:31 pm

The good news is that the Boarder Roads Organization in India had 20 of these springs as of February 28, 2009.

The bad news is that is the only trace of that part number on the internet.

Anyone here work for BRO? :lol:
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