Starter

Won't run? Engine, cooling system, fuel pump, carb, clutch, tranny, brakes, etc. The old messages from the NPCA 'Engine & Mechanical' category are here.

Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:03 pm

Does anyone have a junk starter that they would be willing to take this spring out of? The part number is the same for either Hitachi starter. I'm going to post in the wanted section as well.
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Postby Esteban » Thu Mar 03, 2016 9:05 pm

Excellent progress! :dance: :dance: :dance:

I edited one of my posts, just before the description of your procedure to dismantle, including the exploded view of the 1971 Part Manual, so people can refer more easily to the part numbers you mention. This is the first time that I pay attention to the ISO Starter. Out of curiosity I've compared the parts numbers. Incredible that Nissan went though so much trouble just to change the bolts and screws. And because of where the screw goes, the solenoid also changes, and the gear case. All the internals are the same. Go figure. And all of this for only a couple of years!!

mtnPatrol wrote:...
To my untrained eye the starter looks pretty good. I did find a 2" piece of pinion sleeve spring 2 (#53) broken off. I wonder if that is the source of my problems. Maybe something to do with the spring not always winding enough to engage the pinion. Though, I would think that it would happen all of the time. Any idea if it is replaceable?

Part # 23443-43600.


You might be able to source this spring in other places. If it's similar, will probably do the trick. Difficult to say for good if that was a source of your problems, but probably you're right.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:50 pm

Any thoughts on the state of the pinion gear teeth? Sorry about the quality.

IMG_20160303_233851.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 03, 2016 11:52 pm

Esteban wrote:Excellent progress! :dance: :dance: :dance:

I edited one of my posts, just before the description of your procedure to dismantle, including the exploded view of the 1971 Part Manual, so people can refer more easily to the part numbers you mention. This is the first time that I pay attention to the ISO Starter. Out of curiosity I've compared the parts numbers. Incredible that Nissan went though so much trouble just to change the bolts and screws. And because of where the screw goes, the solenoid also changes, and the gear case. All the internals are the same. Go figure. And all of this for only a couple of years!!

mtnPatrol wrote:...
To my untrained eye the starter looks pretty good. I did find a 2" piece of pinion sleeve spring 2 (#53) broken off. I wonder if that is the source of my problems. Maybe something to do with the spring not always winding enough to engage the pinion. Though, I would think that it would happen all of the time. Any idea if it is replaceable?

Part # 23443-43600.


You might be able to source this spring in other places. If it's similar, will probably do the trick. Difficult to say for good if that was a source of your problems, but probably you're right.


Thank you for adding the exploded diagram. That is helpful.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:15 am

After finally getting my starter disassembled I was able to give it a good cleaning. The Model P Service Manual recommends polishing the inside of the core if it is rusty. Does that mean the case where the coil field is? Should you clean the poles?

After a good cleaning I was able to further inspect my starter. Again, mostly everything looked good. There was a bit of wear on the rear case bushing (#19). As I looked closer, I noticed a good sized recess that extends approximately 25% of the way around the bushing. It is fairly wide as well. The recess is near the far end of the bearing. In it sits something like felt. That material was only in about half of the recess. Is that recess and material supposed to be there?

After a thorough cleaning, I lightly sanded my commutator with the 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.

When I begin reassembly I plan to oil the gear case bearing (#34), the rear case bearing (#19), and the center bearing (#31) . The service manual recommends coating the armature with oil. Which parts of the armature should get oil (commutator, windings, ridges and valleys of the main section)? Can all areas of the shaft get oil? Does the weight of oil used for coating matter? Is there any place to keep oil away from?
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Postby mtnPatrol » Tue Mar 08, 2016 1:24 am

For now, I plan to reassemble and install my starter with the existing spring. If I can find a replacement spring, and the starter continues to occasionally grind, I will take it back out and replace the spring.

At the suggestion of the starter guy I talked with today, I bent the broken end so that it now matches the rest of the spring and will seat correctly and then I stretched the spring a small amount.
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Postby Esteban » Tue Mar 08, 2016 8:39 am

mtnPatrol wrote:After finally getting my starter disassembled I was able to give it a good cleaning. The Model P Service Manual recommends polishing the inside of the core if it is rusty. Does that mean the case where the coil field is? Should you clean the poles?


The service manual is referring to all bare metal exposed areas of the armature and the poles that the coils wrap. Clean all traces of rust, and then apply a light coat of oil to prevent rust (to be honest, I've never done this except for cleaning). Avoid any oil at the commutator area, since it could ruin the carbon brushes.

mtnPatrol wrote:After a good cleaning I was able to further inspect my starter. Again, mostly everything looked good. There was a bit of wear on the rear case bushing (#19). As I looked closer, I noticed a good sized recess that extends approximately 25% of the way around the bushing. It is fairly wide as well. The recess is near the far end of the bearing. In it sits something like felt. That material was only in about half of the recess. Is that recess and material supposed to be there?


The felt there makes sense to keep some of the oil that you should apply from time to time through the exterior of the cap. In fact, the owner's manual recommends 5 or 6 drops of engine oil periodically in the oiling port. Don't over apply the oil, since it could end up splashing over the commutator.

Thanks for all this mtnPatrol. With your efforts all of us learning and are probably looking to give it a try at dismantling and servicing the starter.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:34 am

I hadn't even noticed the oiling port. Now the recess and felt make sense. So to oil externally, you depress the oiling port ball and add 5 or 6 drops? Here is a picture for those wanting to do an external service of their starter. You can see the ball on the top of the protrusion on the back plate.

IMG_20160308_104916.jpg
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Postby mtnPatrol » Wed Mar 09, 2016 8:59 pm

Starter went back in today. While she is now clean and well-oiled, the unfortunate news is it didn't make a darn bit of a difference. It still regularly grinds. My guess is that it is likely due to the wear on pinion gear.

The only thing I have to show for all that work is a hole in my thumb where my scribe slipped and stabbed me :clap:

Since mine grinds more than occasionally I'm going to get a new starter. Will this one do the trick: http://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-SHI ... B00AWMRLGM?
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Postby Esteban » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:20 pm

mtnPatrol wrote:Starter went back in today. While she is now clean and well-oiled, the unfortunate news is it didn't make a darn bit of a difference. It still regularly grinds. My guess is that it is likely due to the wear on pinion gear.

The only thing I have to show for all that work is a hole in my thumb where my scribe slipped and stabbed me :clap:

Since mine grinds more than occasionally I'm going to get a new starter. Will this one do the trick: http://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-SHI ... B00AWMRLGM?


Too bad about the finger!!

The starter part number in the Amazon link certainly matches the newer type starter and the price is unbeatable. Good find! I was checking with a link that I saved, but it was broken. The newer type of starter is more powerful (1.2KW compared with 1KW of the older type, and on top of that it's lighter.

By any chance, did you try to adjust the bolt at the solenoid? Maybe turning in about 1/16" or so to see if it makes a difference. It's possible to just take the solenoid out and leave the starter in place, although it's cumbersome to work there.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:50 pm

Esteban wrote:
mtnPatrol wrote:Starter went back in today. While she is now clean and well-oiled, the unfortunate news is it didn't make a darn bit of a difference. It still regularly grinds. My guess is that it is likely due to the wear on pinion gear.

The only thing I have to show for all that work is a hole in my thumb where my scribe slipped and stabbed me :clap:

Since mine grinds more than occasionally I'm going to get a new starter. Will this one do the trick: http://www.amazon.com/DB-Electrical-SHI ... B00AWMRLGM?


Too bad about the finger!!

The starter part number in the Amazon link certainly matches the newer type starter and the price is unbeatable. Good find! I was checking with a link that I saved, but it was broken. The newer type of starter is more powerful (1.2KW compared with 1KW of the older type, and on top of that it's lighter.

By any chance, did you try to adjust the bolt at the solenoid? Maybe turning in about 1/16" or so to see if it makes a difference. It's possible to just take the solenoid out and leave the starter in place, although it's cumbersome to work there.


I didn't try that but I will give it a go tomorrow before I order the new starter. It is worth a shot. I want to make the arm shorter, correct? So it is a bolt you turn rather than a nut you loosen? Do you turn the arm at all or does turning the bolt take care of the length?
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Postby Esteban » Wed Mar 09, 2016 10:32 pm

I think there's a smaller nut that you loose first and that will allow the head with the two prongs to rotate. The idea will be to shorten the length of the head so it moves the drive gear a little closer to the flywheel.

The idea is that the drive gear ends up fully engaged before the starter turns.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Wed Mar 09, 2016 11:43 pm

Sounds good. Will report back.
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Postby mtnPatrol » Thu Mar 10, 2016 8:05 pm

I pulled the solenoid off today. To adjust the arm length you have to loosen two nuts and turn the arm. I shortened it by 1/16". That was the free length that I lost in my spring.

I put it back in and, while it still ground a couple of times, it seemed much better. Out of 20 turns of the key it only happened 2 times. Before it was closer to 50%. However, I was just bumping the starter to see if it caught on most of those attempts. Perhaps with normal use it will still happen with the same regularity. Until I get my water pump back and installed I am going to hold off on ordering a new starter. Once I have the water pump on I can test the starter normally.
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Postby andy1963patrol » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:27 pm

Hi mtnpatrol! did you fit the starter you purchased from amazon? and did it work?

I'm having issues with mine right now and am looking at possible options!

Thank you!
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