Manual Starting a Patrol

[GARYSCC]

Hi, I recall a discussion a few months back about someone that had made some hand crank starter tools. Is there one still available? I thought it would be a cool tool to have a around in case of an emergency.

[RiverPatrol]

This one on ebay is a replica of the original: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nissan-Datsun-P ... a2&vxp=mtr

[GARYSCC]

Thank you leslie! I just bought it from bosque.

[faux40]

Okay, now for a small segues -- The alternator vs. generator discussion! The hand crank is the #1 reason I want a generator in my Patrol.

The way I understand it, an alternator requires voltage/current from the battery in order to excite the field and make electricity but a generator does not. Simply turning a generator will create power so you can actually hand-crank start the Patrol with a 100% dead battery whereas if you have an alternator with the completely flat battery, you're walking.

Or, am I on glue here?

John

[RiverPatrol]

I don't know the technical details on this but I think that you are generally right. Although, Patrols after '68 came with alternators and were still equipped with hand cranks. The alternators were externally regulated so this may be the caveat.

I have one Patrol that has a GM one-wire alternator in it. I haven't tried starting it with the hand crank. The engine was freshly rebuilt and I can't turn the thing over with the hand crank for the life of me.

[Esteban]

The way I understand it, an alternator requires voltage/current from the battery in order to excite the field and make electricity but a generator does not. Simply turning a generator will create power so you can actually hand-crank start the Patrol with a 100% dead battery whereas if you have an alternator with the completely flat battery, you're walking.
John

This is partially true. Initially you need to polarize a generator, connecting a battery to it for a second, so in this process a remanent magnetism is created inside the generator. So if you turn the engine by any mechanical means like putting the vehicle in gear and coercing your buddies into pushing it, the generator will produce electricity on its own.

In theory, this is possible with the hand-crank. However, if the battery is totally dead, you'll need to turn the engine really fast in order to generate enough electricity for the ignition system, something we mere mortals are not capable of. What normally happens is that the battery might be weak, and not able to operate the starter motor, but still have enough for the ignition system. In that case, three or four turns to the hand-crank at the right pace and the engine will start.

Happened to me once that the battery went totally dead. Still had the generator fitted. Tried the hand-crank and nothing happened. Pulled with another car for a couple of blocks, and could not start the engine. During this process the generator managed to lose its remanent magnetism, and was impossible to make it run.

The advantages of the alternator are numerous (like Seahawks vs. Broncos). Less horse-power robbed to engine, double the output power with less weight, less interference to the radio, etc.

[GARYSCC]

If the main problem with hand cranking on a dead battery is poor ignition spark, could I attach to the coil primary a12v lantern battery or other 12v source and then once started remove the temporary battery?

[RiverPatrol]

Patrols don't need much ignition spark really. Remember that they're running a points and condenser ignition, not HEI. If you check the spark from a plug wire you'll notice that it isn't a real bright spark.

[faux40]

I would imagine that yes, a small 12v battery "jump start for the ignition" would work. I'm not sure how much current is required to excite the alternator's field, but I'm guessing that it's not too much. My concern would be that the Patrol's battery would suck the lantern battery dry quickly so I wouldn't dilly-dally before hand-cranking away!

Esteban pointed out that an alternator robs less horsepower -- I've always wondered how much the difference is... It could be a lot. A long time ago, and without my boss' permission, I put an alternator test device on a V8 powered car and loaded it up -- it put enough draw on the alternator to stall the engine!

I believe that the reason for this difference is because an alternator makes power on demand -- when you turn the headlights on, the alternator ramps up power production which increases the power taken from the engine. This means that the alternator is always pulling on the engine as little as possible to produce only as much power as is asked for.

In the case of a generator, it generates its full power all the time so it's always sapping power from the engine -- of course this power sapping is proportional to the engine RPM. This means that it's always pulling on the engine as much as it can.

How about them apples...


John

[GARYSCC]

I was also wondering how to safely manual start the patrol. I have heard stories of guys back in the 1930s getting broken hands while manual starting the Ford Model A's. I understand that I will rotate it clockwise, and I don't want to get my thumb caught in case it whips backward counterclockwise.