Manual Starting a Patrol

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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by faux40 »

Yea... nobody said it was safe to hand crank an engine! ;-) You're absolutely right, the problem is if the engine kicks backward because the handle will not eject itself and will spin back with all the power of the engine. But it's not just your thumb -- We're talking hands, arms and even death here!

REMEMBER:
Just because we CAN start the engine by hand doesn't mean we actually DO start it by hand! You know -- Bragging rights!

If you choose to try (and I'm sure I will), here are some tips I shamelessly "borrowed":

1) Make sure your engine starts and runs well -- don't use the hand crank to start a poorly running engine
2) Set the timing to TDC or later to avoid backfires (and test-start the engine before trying it by hand!)
3) Use an open grip rather than a grap-grip (by open grip, I mean thumb with fingers on the same side of the handle)
4) Pull up on the handle. Don't push down as that puts your body weight and momentum heading into the spinning handle rather than away from it.

Anyway, here are the hand-cranking resources I found:
http://web.utk.edu/~tprather/FoothillsT ... yhand.html
http://www.abarnyard.com/workshop/handcrank.htm

Good luck, be safe and post a video of your attempts!

John
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by RiverPatrol »

I do not know of any scenarios of hand starting a Patrol where the crank kicked back. Actually, the slot in the nut on the crank shaft is designed so the the crank will fall out if the engine turns backwards. In other words, it would be impossible to crank the engine backwards with the hand crank - ask me how I know. ;) The hand crank is always helpful to have around to turn the engine when you are adjusting the valves, points or statically adjusting the timing.
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by Esteban »

Faux40 beat me on this so had to redo part of my answer. His tips are a must have. :clap: :clap: :clap:

Crank kick back happens!
GARYSCC wrote:I was also wondering how to safely manual start the patrol. I have heard stories of guys back in the 1930s getting broken hands while manual starting the Ford Model A's. I understand that I will rotate it clockwise, and I don't want to get my thumb caught in case it whips backward counterclockwise.
The crankshaft nut where the hand-crank engages, is made in such a way that when the engine starts, if forces the hand-crank out, so that part of the process is safe. However, and this I'm quoting from Wikipedia (I'm lazy today) ...The behavior of an engine during starting is not always predictable. The engine can kick back, causing sudden reverse rotation. Many manual starters included a one-directional slip or release provision so that once engine rotation began, the starter would disengage from the engine.

This reminded me of a nice anecdote. I was 18 at that time, at skinny. Have taken the Patrol to the shop, because it was with an oil leak coming from the rear of the engine. They found out that it was the steel plug for the camshaft. They had removed the transmission, clutch, and flywheel to uncover it. The engine had been repaired some months before and the camshaft bearings changed at that time, so this plug had been removed. As a way to correct it, they decided to put some epoxy from the outside. The mechanic said that it was probably a good idea to run the engine to make sure the leak was fixed. Only problem was that the flywheel was out, so no starter. I offered them that I could start it using the hand-crank. He thought that it was a good idea, but that he will do it instead, since he was a burly guy.

Two attempts, and he couldn't do it, and had already a couple of kick backs. The kick backs were really good, since the inertia of the flywheel was not there to control some of it. So it was my turn. Took me a couple of trials, with no kick backs, and got the engine started. The key issue here is that once you pass a point of compression, the effort to turn suddenly eases a bit, so this mechanic was relaxing the force, only to be faced with a sudden kickback from the next compression. The thing is to keep going at the same pace, and it will go.

I have to clarify here that this was at an altitude of 9200 ft (2800m) so the compression of the engine is significantly lower than at sea level. In fact, it was sort of easy to start the engine in normal conditions (not like above) when the battery was weak.
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by Flaggoni »

I like the electrical stuff, so this discussion has got my attention. I've also hand cranked my L320 Nissan for nearly a year cause I was too cheap (poor) to buy starter parts as a newlywed 36 years ago. Also have hand-propped numerous aircraft engines (up to 985 cubic inch). I SHALL do so on my patrol once I make a crank and get in a foolish mood...
River mentioned that the one-way slot on the crankshaft nut prevented the crank handle from kicking backwards. It actually only prevents the engine from driving the crank fwd as it starts (if it starts?).
Lotsa thots on Alts and Gens...
1. I agree with Esteban that if the batt is completely dead you are not gonna be able to spin a generator fast enough by hand to produce anything useful for ignition. But,it doesn't take much battery to provide ignition if you hand crank or push start so that the starter motor is not sucking the system down voltage-wise. That same small voltage is enough to provide initial alternator field excitation once started. A warning, though, it is very possible to damage an ALT (though not a GEN) attempting to quickly charge a nearly dead battery. Prob TMI, but this is because the alternator is not over current protected by its regulator. A GEN regulator has a voltage controlling coil, a current (amps) limiting coil and a reverse-current preventing coil.
2.ALTS and GENs are BOTH "on demand " to use John's phrase. Their regulators sense battery/system voltage, and constantly
adjust the magnetic field strength to keep that voltage level constant regardless of system load.
3.A well-designed generator driven at it's designed RPM, is nearly as efficient as an ALT (subtracting of course drag from heavier brush springs, overall heavier weight, and a what are called commutation-losses. Besides being lighter and cheaper to build, maintain, the big advantage the ALT has is it ability to produce good output at idle/low speed conditions. It's very possible to design a GEN that will produce at low speed, the problem is, when it is turned at high speed it will blow up (dynamic disassembly ?). The rotor of an ALT, is structurally very strong and can withstand very high RPMs. Compare the pulley size between a GEN and ALT, and you will see the ALT is much smaller. This allows the ALT to generate at engine idle speed. Or, to say another way, if you put a small pulley on a GEN, it would work at idle also, but would come apart at higher speed.
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by zed »

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1970 240Z
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by faux40 »

Wow! Nearly 1000 Cubic Inches -- Now that's big!

The crank start video sure makes it look easy, but did you notice he pushed down on the far-side of the crank, rather than pulling up on the near-side.

I can't wait until mine runs and I get to try it myself!

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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by GARYSCC »

I received the hand crank and it works great! Its actually fun to use it.
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by Flaggoni »

Anybody got dimensions for the Patrol Crank?
I'd like to make one as close to original size as possible. Thanks...
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by faux40 »

Okie dokie...

Before you spend a bunch of time, Dave (a.k.a. Bosque) makes them and sells them on ebay. His ebay site is http://www.ebay.com/usr/bosquewood He doesn't have any there right now, but ping him and he may be able to whip one up for you (It's easier than doing it yourself!). If you're so inclined (like I'd be ;-) ), here's the scoop! First, it's made of 3/4" stock -- These pictures should tell the rest of the story...

The Big Picture view
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Details on the handle offset
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Engine-End Close Up - Horizontal
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Engine-End Close Up - Vertical
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Re: Manual Starting a Patrol

Post by zed »

Interesting fact;
The Datsun 320 (E1 Series motor) and 520 (J13 Series motor) pickups also have a crank start "crank dog". The cranks handle for the pickups is smaller than the Nissan Patrol (P/P40 Series motor).

According the Dave (a.k.a. Bosque), the Land Rover crank start handle interchanges with the Nissan Patrol.
Keith
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1966 PL520
1970 240Z
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