60Patrol

The pedal structure has a curvature that will be the one touching the panel at full travel. That point is about 11" from the pivot point above. The pushrod anchoring point is about 1.8" (these measurements are approximate and done on the pdf drawing). Doing the math, to increase the pushrod travel by 0.09", the pedal structure at that curved place will need to travel an additional 0.55". Let's say 1/2". Maybe removing that amount and reinforcing the other side by the same amount can give your engineering mind some peace of mind.

The other could be to create a recess in the footwell to allow the extra travel of the brake pedal.

r1lark wrote:OK, back from our upstate NY vacation, grass is cut, weather is nice.........time to get the Patrol back out from its winter slumber. So, going to my Mom's tomorrow, get the Patrol uncovered and moved up to the carport work area.

Will get some measurements on the brake pedal/master cylinder push rod. Will measure the distance from the firewall to the end of the m/c push rod with the pedal in the normal 'at rest' position, and also with the pedal all the way down to the floor. From this (plus measurements on the original m'c and measurements on the Wilwood m/c) I can design the adapter to bolt the Wilwood dual master cylinder on. Even though I've re-read every post on this forum about adapting the Wilwood m/c to the Patrol, I can't find any info on how much the Wilwood m/c must be spaced away from the firewall to make the stock pushrod work. Thought I had read that there is 1" length needed on the adapter to make the stock unmodified push rod work, but can't find that anywhere now. No problem, with the measurements it can be calculated.

In reading the Wilwood info, the pedal/pushrod must be able to stroke the m/c to full stroke before the pedal goes to the floor. From the Wilwood tech data sheet: "The master cylinder push rod must bottom out in the bore before the pedal stops against the floorboard. The inherent safety feature of tandem master cylinders is the ability to still build pressure in one circuit if the other fails. In the event of a circuit failure, the push rod (and pedal) may travel 50% - 80% of the total stroke before starting to build pressure in the other circuit, allowing emergency braking to stop the vehicle."

The plan is to design and build the adapter at home, then take it to my Mom's and mount the adapter and m/c and test the stroke. More to follow..........

I can add some info to you for this....

The guy over at the now defunct Patrols North did all the hard work and created a adapter for the Wilwood Dual MC which looks very nice. I actually still have one on hand. His design was so that you could use the stock patrol pushrod and it would have to correct travel. Unfortunately, in my opinion, this design requires you to grind the mounting holes in the firewall to make it fit. I am currently working on making a my own version of this adapter that will allow you to unbolt the old MC and bolt on the new MC with no modifications. But in the meantime I will give you the most crucial measurement that is required in this setup and that is the amount of spacing you need between the firewall and new MC. It is 22.25mm or .875", this should give you the correct travel while still using the stock pushrod. This will be doubly confirmed once L60Boerne does his test drive here soon. Below are pics of the Patrols North adapter and a earlier version on mine.

Patrols North adapter My style adapter I plan on getting a few of these made up to offer with my brackets for the front disc brake conversion but not sure how long that will take me to get accomplished.

Thanks a bunch Justin for the info and that measurement. I've been working on a preliminary drawing of an adapter, so I'll see if I come up with the same .875" dimension that you do.

And, thanks for the pic of the Patrols North adapter. Will (desertrat) at Patrols North and I had exchanged some emails right about the time he put his store on hold. He did indicate that he had made a design change to his adapters so the mounting holes in the firewall would not have to be ground/enlarged. Will also indicated that he had a number of the new design adapters already made up. I have been trying to contact Will for about 6 months to buy an adapter but have not been able to get ahold of him.

I like how Will incorporated the ability to use the m/c boot on the end of the adapter, but it looks like he set it up for the stock Patrol boot. I'll have to steal that idea, but will set it up for the boot that comes with the Wilwood m/c since I don't have a stock Patrol boot. Once I have an adapter design roughed out, I can order a piece of aluminum and start whittling away on the lathe.

I wish I had a lathe.....

jwgreen wrote:I wish I had a lathe.....

I know someone who does and he loves using it!

Esteban wrote:The pedal structure has a curvature that will be the one touching the panel at full travel. That point is about 11" from the pivot point above. The pushrod anchoring point is about 1.8" (these measurements are approximate and done on the pdf drawing). Doing the math, to increase the pushrod travel by 0.09", the pedal structure at that curved place will need to travel an additional 0.55". Let's say 1/2". Maybe removing that amount and reinforcing the other side by the same amount can give your engineering mind some peace of mind.

The other could be to create a recess in the footwell to allow the extra travel of the brake pedal.

pedal.jpg

Esteban, thank you very much for the thoughtful and well documented suggestions! All of these are things I'm considering. Next time (maybe late this week) I go to the Patrol, I'll test moving the brace with the rubber bumpers, since it's easy to do (as long as the two bolts come out ok ). But I really think this will move the pedals up and too close to the seat for my long legs. EDIT: this method would also change the thickness of the adapter for the Wilwood m/c.

A modification of the floor is something I thought of too. It would not be hard at all to cut out a strip about 1" wide and however long it needs to be. Some sheetmetal bent up on the brake, with holes for plug welds, would easily close it up. Seam sealer on the underneath of the floorboard would make it waterproof. I would have to find some paint that is a close match to finish the metal on the inside.

Modifying the pedal is also a good idea, and would be fairly un-noticeable. Not sure how easy it is to get these pedals out. But I would have to take the pedal out, cut off material on the 'back' side, put it back in to test it, then take it out again to reinforce it, and finally install it for good.

Right now I'm focusing on the adapter for the m/c. Not sure yet whether it will be a single piece machined on the lathe, or a weldment like Justin (jwgreen) posted a picture of a couple of posts above.

jwgreen wrote:
I can add some info to you for this....in the meantime I will give you the most crucial measurement that is required in this setup and that is the amount of spacing you need between the firewall and new MC. It is 22.25mm or .875", this should give you the correct travel while still using the stock pushrod.

Justin,

Been doing some sketching and figuring. After taking measurements on the original m/c and the Wilwood m/c, I've come up with two different options for the amount of spacing between the outside surface of the firewall and the mounting flange on the Wilwood m/c. This is all based on my measurements on my Patrol, my original m/c, and the Wilwood m/c.

On my Patrol, with the brake pedal 'at rest' against the rubber bumper, the end of the pushrod is 1.5" from the outside edge of the firewall. Based on my measurements of Patrol pushrod with the pedal 'at rest', and the original m/c, it looks like there was around 0.043" clearance between the end of the pushrod and the bottom of the piston bore. This would equate to roughly 1/3" of pedal freeplay which sounds about right. The original m/c had two (2) factory shims for a total of 0.139" thickness. If I utilize the factory shims with the adapter and allow for the 0.043" clearance between the pushrod and bottom of the piston bore, the adapter would be 0.920" thick. Without utilizing the factory shims, but still allowing for the 0.043" clearance between the pushrod and bottom of the piston bore, the adapter would be 1.059" thick.

I'm thinking a wise thing to do would be to reduce the adapters by a small amount to take care of potential tolerance stackups. While shims can be installed to get the proper pedal freeplay if the adapter is too "short", if it's too "long" you are kind of stuck unless it is machined thinner.

This is all a 'first cut' at the adapter thickness, and will leave it alone for a couple of days and look at it again to make sure I'm visualizing all of this correctly. Unfortunately, I can't use CAD (Cardboard Aided Design) to test these options out.

Went to my Mom's yesterday, and did get a tiny bit of work done on the Patrol. (My Mom's car needed a new battery, so getting the old one out, taking it to the parts store, getting the new one and getting it installed, etc took up some time. Mom is 98 and stopped driving a few years ago, but we use the car when she has appointments, etc.)

As far as the brake pedal stroke .............Was able to reposition the bracket that holds the brake and clutch pedal rubber bumpers. It doesn't take much moving the bracket to give me an extra .125" of pushrod stroke, and doesn't seem to make enough change in the pedal height to bother me. This will probably be what I end up doing to make sure the Wilwood m/c can have its full 1.10" stroke. I'll probably just modify the bracket to accomplish this, and use the same attachment holes since they have caged nuts that I can't seem to even find.

Next will be to fabricate the adapter to mount the m/c. That won't start for another week or so, since I'm assembling a Studebaker V8 and want to get this done and ran on the test stand.

I usually go to my Mom's once a week, so next week the work on the Patrol will probably be to continue cleaning on the underside and coating with Eastwood Rust Encapsulator.

Very little to update on, while I've been to my Mom's at least 3 times in the past month, there have been other tasks that have taken precedent over the Patrol. Plus, it's been pretty hot and very humid here in NC.

But, I have started on the master cylinder adapter to install the Wildwood dual m/c. Got the two flanges cut out and drilled, and ordered some material to make the 'bung' to allow the pushrod boot to be used in the stock position. Will have pics on the next update.

Just so y'all know I'm still around..........

*********WARNING: long post with a lot of pictures!********

Finally, some progress. Been busy assembling a Studebaker V8 engine, because I have another Stude engine (this one is a 6 cylinder) that finally has come back from the machine shop (cleaned, magnafuxed, bored, and honed). But I did finish the assembly of the adapter yesterday, and went to my Mom's today where the Patrol is stored and installed the adapter and m/c.

I had started on the adapter for the Wilwood m/c more than a month ago. As mentioned in the last post, got the two flanges made, and was waiting on the round stock that I ordered off ebay.

Already had decided to incorporate into the adapter the 'bung' to allow the pushrod boot to be used in the stock position. Basically, this is a duplicate of the end of the stock master cylinder which protrudes thru the firewall and holds the pushrod boot. Luckily, the Wilwood m/c pushrod boot fits perfectly on the stock m/c, so it was just a matter of measuring and making up a drawing to go by.

Cut a chunk of the round stock and chucked it up in the lathe: This wasn't the easiest piece to machine, especially for a backyard machinist. A couple of pics of some of the machining steps: Finished product: This 'bung' fits inside the flange piece which bolts to the firewall. Basically it's a duplicate of the flange on the stock m/c: On the backside, four 'gouges' were ground out to weld the bung to the flange. This is really not a high stress attachment, so a weld all the way around was not needed. The welds were dressed down even with the face of the flange (which is why the 'gouges' were needed: Another flange was made, with the bolt pattern that matched the Wilwood m/c. Also, a round spacer was machined out of some tubing to space the flanges apart to the correct calculated thickness of the adapter (just slightly over 1 inch). Unfortunately, I didn't take any pictures of the other flange or the spacer.

Here is the adapter assembled. Don't look too hard at the ugly welds, for some reason I couldn't see the molten pool too well while I was welding, causing the weld to look pretty ugly. Afterwards, I realized that my helmet was still set at the lowest shade setting that I use for welding thin sheetmetal........but for the adapter welds, the welder was cranked up pretty high. <sigh> I guess they could have been dressed up some with a small grinding disc on a Dremel, but they are what they are. I have no doubt at all that the welds are strong, but they are just ugly. Here is the adapter with the Wilwood pushrod boot attached: Adapter bolted to the firewall. Getting the flatwasher, lockwasher, and nut onto the upper bolt, and holding the nut when tightening the bolt, was very difficult. There is very very little room where the clutch & brake pedals attach to the cross shaft inside the little 'doghouse', especially for someone with very large hands! Wilwood master cylinder installed on the adapter: As mentioned earlier, if I was able to do this over, I'd probably went with the ProTex dual master cylinder. I still have the issue of the pushrod stroke being 1 inch (although I plan to take off the m/c and measure this much more accurately) and the Wilwood m/c requiring a 1.10 inch stroke. My plan had been to modify the floorpan to allow the pedal to stroke further; however, after looking at where the floorboard would have to be modified, the inner fender panel attaches to the firewall in this same area, making it a much much more difficult endeavor than I anticipated. Modifying the pedal itself, as Esteban suggested, is still a possibility, but from what i looked at today, to get the clutch/brake pedal shaft out to remove the pedals, it looks like the steering column needs to come out. And, doesn't this mean the whole steering box has to come out??

Modifications are always a slippery slope, you run in to other things that have to be modified too, and the job gets bigger and bigger. Maybe i should have just gotten the original m/c bore sleeved and used that. <sigh>