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Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2021 7:55 pm
by Esteban
Very interesting read! Thanks for posting all these details.

I’m sure you’ll figure this thoroughly.


Esteban

Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Wed Dec 29, 2021 4:36 pm
by Johnny Roadkill
Interesting...

The fact that throttle-body injection and batch-fire injection systems work on OEM vehicles seems to me to suggest the timing of the injector pulse isn't a deal breaker - my understanding is emissions control is where sequential, time-indexed injection benefits lie.

Are you confident the plugs are all sparking properly ? Even when the coil is generating HV, an arc can be produced from the HV lead and the plug fires externally to the motor the spark can break down if compression and fuel mixture aren't right inside the chamber(s). The symptoms you describe don't rule that out to my mind.

Different plugs ? Coil dwell time ? Spark advance setting ? Wasted spark pairs correct ? HV leads all good ? Mixture too rich ? Just some thoughts, you may rightly discount these already...

Keep at it, my buddy's EFI slant 6 ran like rubbish for weeks until a few bugs got ironed out - it was well worth the extra effort, it's a beautiful thing now.

Cheers,
D

Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Thu Dec 30, 2021 10:38 am
by dlbass93
D, after thinking about it more, and a little experiment yesterday morning, I think you are right. Maybe you can spot my error, but I'm still digging... I pulled the fuel pump fuse, stuck a brand new plug in wire 3 and held it against the fender while I ran the starter. I had a very bright, consistent, blue spark. I did not repeat the test with the plug that has been in the block yet. The plugs are whatever Autolite part the O'reilly computer said was correct for the Patrol. Maybe I should be using a different plug with these coils?

As far as coil dwell, I've been reading everything I can find to understand better how to figure out what it should be set to. Currently, it is set to the 3.5ms recommended in the Megasquirt hardware manual for the GM 585 truck coil I am using. What I haven't yet stumbled over is why they used to recommend 4.5ms. I have read that you want that dwell as low as possible while not affecting idle; even as low as 2ms. I haven't made adjustments to it since I have a blue spark in the RPM range that the engine is acting stupid in.

I've left spark advance to the fixed 10 degree setting, and let it use the default advance table. When I first got it running, I really thought it was running pretty well, only slightly misfiring, and the advance table made a huge improvement in accel/decel, but it still worked at static 10.

I still feel like I have configured the TDC point incorrectly, but I have done it three different ways a dozen times and always come up with the same thing, so it just has to be correct. When looking at the engine from the front, my crank angle sensor is around 11 o'clock and the timing mark is around 1. With cylinder 1 at tdc on its compression stroke, the timing pointer is very close to lined up with the left most of the three timing marks on the crank pulley. From there, I set my missing tooth to be 50deg to the right of my sensor; which puts the missing tooth just ahead of the group of timing marks on the pulley. That's supposed to mean that as the sensor reads the gap, the computer knows that the engine is 50deg before tdc on compression for cyl 1, and from there it can handle all of its timing. That 50deg number came from the Megasquirt hardware manual for an inline six engine. I keep hoping that someone knows a way I can confirm that I have this correct. The only test I have done is to hook the timing light on it, set the light to 10deg, and the strobe lines up with the same left-most (last mark to pass the pointer when engine rotating) mark on the pulley.

When figuring out the wasted spark pairs, I did some more of my own math, which might be totally wrong.
I said if the firing order is 1-5-3-6-2-4, and we are using three channels (A, B, C) to drive the spark:
A will drive the first and fourth sparks, cylinder 1 and cylinder 6
B will drive the second and fifth sparks, cylinder 5 and cylinder 2 (or 2 and 5)
C will drive the third and sixth sparks, cylinder 3 and cylinder 4

So you wind up with the outer two cylinders paired, then the next inside paired, and finally the center two paired. Diagram for fun.
coil-signal-wiring@3x-100.jpg
These HV leads all seem to be working, but they did come from a junkyard 90s model Ford car. I have a spool of lead wire, maybe I can re-use these connectors... I'll work on making new leads.

I think the mixture is on the rich side, and leaning it out does make for a better idle, but I'm having a hard time judging it because not all cylinders are firing yet.

I'm probably trying to use too many old parts that I don't know are in good shape, and I didn't know until later that I ran out of gas during my last test to see which cylinders were firing. So, it might've just been out of gas... Maybe I'll have more news this weekend.

Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Sun Jan 02, 2022 3:57 pm
by Johnny Roadkill
Sorry for the delayed response, on holiday at the moment 8-)

Sounds like your coils are making good spark, and your plug wires are sending it as they should - and your dwell setting sounds like it's in the zone. If your timing light is confirming the timing is correct at cylinder 1 then that all sounds good too, your crank angle sensor must be there or thereabouts...if it were missing sensing a tooth it might be detecting 2 TDC points maybe ? Kinda need an oscilloscope to nut that out for sure though...

Not getting a trigger from some plug wires is a concern...I have read others saying certain plugs are better than others for the P motor but I don't have much insight there, I just use Bosch plugs but I'm a long way from home so can't confirm the part number. Plug protrusion into the chamber and heat range would be the variables I can think of that might matter.

If that firing order is correct - I forget - then no dramas with your pairing of the coils either.

Maybe plugs...maybe mixture too rich to fire consistently ? Is your compression good over all 6 pots ? Is your fuel a bit stale ? Just throwing thoughts out there, your hands-on intuition is your best diagnostic tool, or ring in an electron-chaser/petrol-head buddy to cast an eye over it...unless the chase is something you prefer to do alone, I'm a bit that way inclined so I get that. :oops:

Cheers,
D

Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 9:55 am
by dlbass93
Alright fellas. I think we got it figured out. I still don't know what I am doing, but it seems like my throttle body both flows too much air for the throttle body injected fuel to remain atomized properly. A redesign is in the works to get the airflow down to increase velocity (I think), and to relocate the throttle plate beneath the injectors to aid in low speed atomization.

Here's a link to the megasquirt forum where we figured this out. https://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopi ... 95#p578595

Project is back on track, and oh boy does it sound nice.

Re: Custom electronic fuel injection and ignition

Posted: Sat Jan 08, 2022 4:03 pm
by Johnny Roadkill
Sounds like the old tuners' adage is true for EFI as it is for carbs...

"if you think it's ignition it's probably fuel, if you think it's fuel it's probably ignition"

Nice work, looks like the MS forum is a good one - people with first-hand knowledge on the subject !

Cheers,
D