1967 Family Patrol Project

[Esteban]

John and Jay,

The Service Manual 1978_Part1.pdf in Patrolabilia has all the information that the machine shop will need.

http://www.60patrol.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1962

The part that relates to the valves begins in page 40 of the pdf file, or EM-8 to EM-13 of the page numbering of the manual.

In addition, the information regarding the valve seat angle is not included in that manual. It should be 45°30' (the valves are 45° as RiverPatrol mentioned). I have a little pocket book, 1973 Service Data & Specifications that covers all Nissan / Datsun of that year, and got the information there.

I wish you could take some pictures at the machine shop of the work done on your engine parts.

[faux40]

So, I just heard back from the machine shop. He seems on the ball and reasonable... I've heard good things about him. Anyway, it turns out that the head's going to need some attention. Here's what the scoop is (okay, some of this is from memory... my notes are in the garage):
- The head needs to be surfaced
- The exhaust guides are worn
- The exhaust valves need replacement (and they are expensive!)
- The seats are original but he recommend that they be replaced with hardened seats to make it last using unleaded gas
- The intake valves and seats look good and can be ground
- He cannot find a stand-alone gasket set for the head but can get a P40 full engine set for $180-ish
The total cost for the head is well above $700... ouch!

Before I make any decisions, I think I want to have this machine shop inspect the bottom end as well. The cost will be around $200... plus it includes cleaning! Anyway, I was advised to make sure to keep everything labeled and in order. Don, the machinist, then proceeded to list things like pistons, lifters... oh crap, did he say "lifters?"

Now I'm in trouble. When Jay and I pulled the head off, we pulled out the lifters put all of them into ONE tupperware container to keep them from getting dirty. I know that I had to keep pistons and rods sorted, but... Anyway, Don says that may be possible to have the lifters and cam ground but if I just put them in the non-original order, they won't last long.

Perhaps I should pull the engine from the Orange 67 and start the rebuild over...

Thoughts?

Thanks all!

John & Family

[RiverPatrol]

Ooops! Yeah, lifters and pushrods should be replaced in the same holes they came out of.

The price seems a tad high really. I know it's been several years since I rebuilt a Patrol engine but I know the entire cost wasn't much more than what they're charging you for the head work. I did do the valve grind myself, and I didn't have to replace any valves. At 97k miles the guides were not worn. I didn't (and don't recommend) replace the valve seats. On a Patrol engine it really isn't necessary. I don't even use lead additive. The lead or hardened seats are necessary for high performance and high compression engines. The P engine is certainly not that.

Having done my own valve job before I experienced the amazing amount of material that can be ground off a valve and keep it within tolerance. I'm surprised that all of the exhaust valves would need replacing. But I guess if the engine ran with a really bad valve adjustment for a long time it could happen.

Did you get an itemization on the parts from the shop? Here is a source for most of the gaskets, including a kit, on eBay: http://stores.ebay.com/Datsun311Parts/_ ... id=1978539 . He has the exhaust valves as well.

I'm just saying...$700 just for the head work and the bottom end is going to run more than that. By the time you get pistons rings and bearing, having the block checked, cam bearings replaced, might need to turn the crank, boil out the block, etc you're going to be well over double that amount, maybe even triple.

Just my .02.

[bosque]

Oh just give it up and buy a Scrambler.
..... I am no mechanic. I have learned from copying and direction from other Patrollers. BUT.....
.....I do have one experience changing/swap a motor on my 67 and having the original motor machined/rebuilt. You could enter a zone of feeling stuck with unexpected costs which turn the fun.....ugly. Maybe you are lucky to have deeper pockets.
I was surprised how many connective things added up. I pulled the motor/T&T all together and of course realized the perfect opportunity to redo clutch, change bearings, some new bolts, paint!......totally worth it but I was on the brink of hating my decision. Not trying to scare you, just lay down some numbers to stay prioriti$ed.
Bottom line.... 600+ for engine kit, 750 for machinist, 300- I used a mechanic shop for swap....got some help, + incidentals fluids yadayadayada, and my own elbow grease and resources.
I'd do it again. It was fun overall, confidence is there to make the next one easier.
Do as good of job as you all can.

[Esteban]

...
- The seats are original but he recommend that they be replaced with hardened seats to make it last using unleaded gas
- The intake valves and seats look good and can be ground
- He cannot find a stand-alone gasket set for the head but can get a P40 full engine set for $180-ish
...
.. Don says that may be possible to have the lifters and cam ground but if I just put them in the non-original order, they won't last long.

I'm with RiverPatrol on the hardened seats. It's probably a waste of money. Not only that, since in theory you'll need hardened valves as well, and those are unobtanium. Realistically, how many miles per year do you expect to run in your Patrol? Bottom line, don't do it.

Regarding lifters, again, in theory. In real life, not much will happen on a Patrol. I must confess that I've rebuilt 3 Patrols a number of times, and never paid attention to this fact. And here I am, 350k miles later on the one I have. On one occasion I purchased a whole new set of lifters, since the others were pitted.

The problem with these shops is that they want to do it all like in a text book.

Good luck.

[bosque]

They do want to do it textbook.
I just got back from the machinist here and he said he changed my seats to hardened because of engine temperatures and micro welding.
Don't kill the messenger.....
Totally

[moore_rb]

I didn't (and don't recommend) replace the valve seats. On a Patrol engine it really isn't necessary. I don't even use lead additive. The lead or hardened seats are necessary for high performance and high compression engines. The P engine is certainly not that.

Having done my own valve job before I experienced the amazing amount of material that can be ground off a valve and keep it within tolerance. I'm surprised that all of the exhaust valves would need replacing.

Well, it was bound to happen sooner or later, but here is where I will have to (partly) disagree with the Patrol gurus...

True that Lead raises octane, and so the elimination of lead from gas has a greater performance impact in higher compression engines, but that is only half the story...

Leaded fuel also left behind residual salts in the combustion chamber that would compress and compact themselves on the valve seats as the valves opened and closed; and over time these compacted deposits would form a hardened (almost ceramic) coating on the valves and their seats, which worked to prevent premature wear (also called valve recession). These benefits were more greatly seen on the exhaust side, and valve recession is usually more pronounced on the exhaust side when original soft valve seats are used with unleaded fuel.

So, running unleaded gas in any engine with non-hardened valve seats will eventually lead to the kind of accelerated exhaust valve and valve seat wear that John's machinist is seeing... It's all just a matter of time and usage - since most Patrols are not going to be 20k mile per year daily drivers, it may take decades for any notable valve recession to occur, but it WILL happen eventually.

It is also true that valve recession is most pronounced on engines with 150k + miles, and once upon a time, I seem to remember reading somewhere that valve recession occured at a graduated non-linear rate, meaning that the more miles on the engine (and the more worn the valves were), the faster the rate of valve wear would accelerate.

I went back and looked at John's pics of his cylinder head, and I do see some evidence of exhaust valve recession, but it is not extreme, which would look like this:



So, the decision whether to endure the cost of using hardened seats or not should not be based on another person's recomendation (IMHO ); but should instead be based on a realistic expectation of how many miles per year you plan to rack up on the engine, and how many miles you want it to last before it's going to need another valve job.

Perhaps RP and Esteban are correct that hardened valve train parts aren't a mandatory (or cost effective) consideration, if a 100k mile lifespan on the cylinder head is going to be acceptable to you.

And I also agree with Esteban that doing hardened seats without hardened valves would only be half as good, but half as good is still 100% better that not doing either one...

Another 2 pennies, thrown into the well of public opinion...

[moore_rb]

I was advised to make sure to keep everything labeled and in order. Don, the machinist, then proceeded to list things like pistons, lifters... oh crap, did he say "lifters?"

Now I'm in trouble. When Jay and I pulled the head off, we pulled out the lifters put all of them into ONE tupperware container to keep them from getting dirty. I know that I had to keep pistons and rods sorted, but... Anyway, Don says that may be possible to have the lifters and cam ground but if I just put them in the non-original order, they won't last long.

True- lifters are "mated" to the cam lobe during the first 5 minutes after a new or rebuilt engine is fired up for the first time. in fact, initial cam break-in is the most crucial step in a new engine's break in process, and solid lifter engines (like Nissan P engines) are even more "touchy" in this regard than engines with hydraulic lifters are.

So yeah, mixing the lifters up will now require all of them, and the cam, to be re-ground so they can be re-mated after the engine is reassembled and fired up, but the cost to regrind the cam and lifters might add maybe another 300 bucks to the cost of the rebuild (assuming the cam still has enough material on the base circle to allow a regrind, which it certainly should )


Can you get away with NOT re-grinding everything? Yeah, absolutely- after all, these are essentially tractor engines; but is it a best practice to mix lifters? No, not really...

[faux40]

Wow! Thanks for all the replys -- I really appreciate them. Here's where the Family Patrol project stands and what I'm considering doing. A little background:

- The engine pulled from the '66 parts-patrol is mostly disassembled and the head spent a little time at the machine shop. The cost to rebuild the head is nearly $600 and then I still have to rebuild the short block… which, as you know, I made a mess of by mixing up the lifters (rookie move is suppose). I expect that this is likely to be expensive.

- The engine in the orange '67 is fully installed and looks like it might run if I were to try… except the oil pan is off. I have the pan, but have no idea why the previous owner pulled it. I spoke with his widow and she has no idea. I wonder, was it an oil leak? A rod knock? What drove him to pull the pan. This is the Patrol that we expect to get running first. It's even licensed and the cost to insure it is trivial!

- The engine in the white '66 hardtop has a missing valve cover and the manifolds are unbolted and pulled away. Like the orange one, I have no idea why and nobody to ask.

- The white '67 soft top has the V8 that may, or may not be a runner… but then I want an original-ish 6-cyl in it once we start on that project.

So then, now you know where we stand engine-wise. As you can imagine, we'd love to get a Patrol driving as soon (and cheaply) as possible so we need to make some decisions. As of today, I see three reasonable options:

1) Get the head work done, have the cam & lifters reground and then do rings, bearings, etc in the bottom end so I can use this engine in the Orange '67. Not sure what the total cost will be, but I'll plan to be sitting down when I figure it out!

2) Pull the complete engine from the orange '67 and have that rebuilt (I'll probably not only want to be sitting down when I get the price, but perhaps have a medical professional standing by to perform CPR). The bright side is, aside from the obvious "it's rebuilt", is that the serial numbers on the block will match the vin tags.

3) Just go for it… check the torque on the rods and mains in the pan-less engine that is in the orange '67, toss the pan on, dump some oil in and fire it up. The cost to try is only a pan gasket, so how bad can it be?

What do you think? I'd really like someone to give me my opinion here... I'm leaning toward option #3 and just trying it out.

John

[G60michael]

3) Just go for it… check the torque on the rods and mains in the pan-less engine that is in the orange '67, toss the pan on, dump some oil in and fire it up. The cost to try is only a pan gasket, so how bad can it be?

John

John when I got my 72 G60 it hadn't been started in 3 years and the owners sons said it didn't and wouldn't go. So I got it home and filled the radiator, hooked up a good battery and a make shift fuel Tank, hit the key and it fired up and kept idling on its own with no issues. Its got me beat to why people pull thing apart ect, but I have pulled apart a few parts like gearbox's ect just to see how they work look ect. Maybe get one of your young fellas to wind it over with a crank handle and you lie underneath with a torch to see if any of the rods are bent. While your there check the nuts torque like you mentioned. It is best to have matching Vin and engine No for such a Classis and Rare vehicle.

I reckon give it ago, make up a drum with petrol, a battery, sump gasket and some sump oil and give it ago, haven't got much to loose, it may have been pulled just to have a look in the block, who knows. Bit if there is bent rods, piston slap then get it rebuilt and them faulty parts replaced