Distributor Installation

[mtnPatrol]

I recently purchased a 68/69 Patrol. The previous owner installed an hei distributor but hadn't yet set the timing. It wasn't running very well when I looked at it. It wanted to stall out when you stepped on the accelerator.

When I got it home I had a hard time starting it and getting it to continue to run. Yesterday I went out and it started right up and idled well for about 10 minutes. I had installed a new ground wire and adjusted the idle and fuel mixture on the carb and thought that might have fixed it. Feeling confident, I took it up the street, but after about 20 seconds it started losing power and died. I wasn't able to get it restarted.

While trying to track down a timing light, I verified the timing order is correct. However, I noticed that the number one plug wire attached to the cap on a terminal away from the engine. After studying pictures of other rigs on here, the number one terminal is always toward the engine. So I found tdc of number one and sure enough the rotor pointed to that terminal away from the engine where he had attached the number one wire.

I pulled the distributor and rotated the shaft 180 degrees (thinking he might have installed it 180 off) but as the notch on the bottom is offset it wouldn't slide in.

Then I removed the rotor and undid the screw underneath it that attaches to the shaft. I rotated the shaft 180 degrees, reinstalled the screw and rotor, and set back in. Now, with one at tdc the rotor points at an inside terminal.

Before I try to start it and ruin something I figured it would be best to see if I messed anything up. Can the number one cap terminal face outside? Is it acceptable to undo the shaft screw and rotate it 180 degrees relative to the rotor? If so, is there only two places that it will properly reattach (0 and 180 degrees) or could I have attached it slightly off of 180 degrees?

Finally, I looked through my included parts and found an invoice that says the distributor is part #22100-c7000. That is not the same part number as listed on the compatible parts list. Will this distributor work?

I have an email out to the po about whether the engine ran well before switching over to the hei.

Sorry for the length. Any help would be appreciated.

[RiverPatrol]

First of all, welcome to 60Patrol!

Second of all, can you post a picture of the distributor. That would help with diagnosis. You mention that it is an HEI distributor, but then you provide a Nissan part number. Confusing.

It sounds like you started out down the right path with your troubleshooting. You identified that TDC for #1 was pointing away from the engine. Here is a little more info: it is still okay if #1 TDC is pointing away from the engine, it is just confusing when you try to compare, as you found out.

What actually determines where #1 will point at TDC is the distributor drive gear. This is the gear that you found the notch to be offset. At that point what you could have done is pull the gear out and rotate it 180 degrees. Although, this is not always as easy as it sounds. It's a little difficult to get the gear to seat on the correct tooth. It just takes some patience.

Now, what you did instead was something I am not familiar with, but it sounds like your rotor is now 180 degrees off.

You did a good job describing it. I hope my description helps.

[mtnPatrol]

Thank you for the welcome. I'm sure it is me who is confused! Thank you for letting me know that the number one terminal can point outwards. I should have asked before I deduced that it must face inward.

Here are a couple pictures of the distributor:

IMG_20160223_132953.jpg

IMG_20160223_132857.jpg

Let me know if a particular image would be helpful.

There were two other distributors, both Hitachi's, in the included parts. One of those was in a distributor box from Century Ignition Parts, with a packing slip containing the above part number, shipped to the po, about five months ago.

I have watched knowledgeable and experienced friends get exasperated trying to get that gear to sit correctly. I thought I was going far enough down the rabbit hole without trying that.

I think unscrewing the shaft from, I guess, the drive pinion and then rotating the shaft 180 degrees was likely an error. It was hard to tell if there was naturally only two location to reattach (0 and 180). It almost seemed like it could be reattached anywhere and to get it back to exactly where it was may be impossible. If the shaft doesn't just reattach at 0 and 180, is there any way to return the rotor/drive pinion to exactly the same spot in relation to the shaft?

[mtnPatrol]

I just snapped a couple shots with the rotor off. The rotor sits on the black cylinder, which I guess is the drive pinion. In the center of the drive pinion you will see white. That is a piece of fabric. Take that out and you have the screw that secures the drive pinion to the shaft. Once that screw is out, the drive pinion and shaft can move independently. Hopefully, separating them that wasn't a non-recoverable error!

IMG_20160223_161608.jpg

IMG_20160223_161551.jpg

[RiverPatrol]

Hmmm...I can't tell for sure, but it looks like it might be a Helmar forklift distributor with a Pertronix kit installed. The other 2, the Hitachis, are probably original water-protect distributors.

Now, as for finding the exact location for the shaft, I think at this point if it doesn't go back only one way it may be difficult to find the right spot. Normally there is a ridge or a notch on the top of the distributor indicating where #1 TDC is. I know there is on the water-protect distributor. But, since the drive gear is (approximately) 180 degrees off you can't use that as a designation point now.

Yes, getting that dive gear back in the right place can involve much frustration. I know there is a picture of it correctly positioned somewhere in here.

[mtnPatrol]

I assume the Pertronix kit replaces the points for electronic ignition? When doing the swap, wouldn't the drive pinion be disengaged from the shaft?

[RiverPatrol]

When doing the swap, yes, the drive pinion is disengaged from the shaft. The drive pinion is supposed to stay in place when you remove the distributor. Sometimes though it will stick to the shaft and come out with the distributor. That's when the fun starts.

[Esteban]

Welcome to 60Patrol!

...

When I got it home I had a hard time starting it and getting it to continue to run. Yesterday I went out and it started right up and idled well for about 10 minutes. I had installed a new ground wire and adjusted the idle and fuel mixture on the carb and thought that might have fixed it. Feeling confident, I took it up the street, but after about 20 seconds it started losing power and died. I wasn't able to get it restarted.

While trying to track down a timing light, I verified the timing order is correct. However, I noticed that the number one plug wire attached to the cap on a terminal away from the engine. After studying pictures of other rigs on here, the number one terminal is always toward the engine. So I found tdc of number one and sure enough the rotor pointed to that terminal away from the engine where he had attached the number one wire.

I pulled the distributor and rotated the shaft 180 degrees (thinking he might have installed it 180 off) but as the notch on the bottom is offset it wouldn't slide in.

Then I removed the rotor and undid the screw underneath it that attaches to the shaft. I rotated the shaft 180 degrees, reinstalled the screw and rotor, and set back in. Now, with one at tdc the rotor points at an inside terminal.

Before I try to start it and ruin something I figured it would be best to see if I messed anything up. Can the number one cap terminal face outside? Is it acceptable to undo the shaft screw and rotate it 180 degrees relative to the rotor? If so, is there only two places that it will properly reattach (0 and 180 degrees) or could I have attached it slightly off of 180 degrees?
...

Before going into some detail about the distributor, if it idled well for about 10 minutes, then it was more or less in the right position: it could be offset some degrees advanced or retarded, but the fact that it run is telling me that it was close. Maybe you have a different problem.

The good news is that you won't be causing any damage by what you've done to the distributor. Either will run or not. I once was forced to rotate 180° by removing the screw in the center and lifting the shaft. It can only move 180°.

You'll have to go back and make sure when #1 cylinder is at TDC. When reaching the pulley mark, it could be either compression or exhaust. Most probably will end up in the position that you described first, when the rotor is pointing towards the engine (the PO probably made mistake) Normally, #6 will be in that position. This is a picture from the Service Manual that I saved long ago that shows the correct position of the drive gear.



The only way that you can put the drive gear in the correct position is by removing the distributor base.

But my point is not to mess any more with the distributor at this time, but rather go back to what you have when the engine run. Once you solve the issue of the engine running properly, then you can revisit the whole distributor issue. You mention that when you tried to step on the accelerator, the engine stalled. Looks like a carb problem, most likely the accelerator pump that either has a slack in the linkage or is not working right. Also, with the engine running, you can try to advance or retard the distributor a little bit without a timing light. You'll notice that it will run the best (at idle) when it's advanced. However what you feel as a good timing at this point, is normally about 20° advanced or so. You can move towards retard a little bit (all this provided you don't yet have a timing light at hand)

Going back to the distributor, since you have the more modern distributor as RiverPatrol mentioned, please refer to the 1978 Service Manual that you can find in the Patrolabilia section:

http://www.60patrol.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=1962

At page EM-30 (most probably in Part 1) you have a very good detail and procedure on how to install the drive gear in the correct position. Also, from page EE-25 you have a good description of that distributor and it's parts.

Hope this helps.

[RiverPatrol]

Thanks Esteban. I focused on the distributor problem and overlooked the original one.

One other thing that came to mind when you said it ran for 10 minutes, then died and wouldn't restart, is the fuel filter. Patrols are notorious for having junk in the gas tank after sitting for a couple decades. That junk ends up in the fuel filter and it stops running. Been there, done that.

[mtnPatrol]

When doing the swap, yes, the drive pinion is disengaged from the shaft. The drive pinion is supposed to stay in place when you remove the distributor. Sometimes though it will stick to the shaft and come out with the distributor. That's when the fun starts.

Is the round hollow black cylinder I am pointing to the drive pinion or do I have that wrong? That part stayed attached to the distributor even when I took out the screw attacheing it to the shaft. However I could then turn the shaft and that black thing independently. That allowed me to rotate the rotor 180 degrees. I didn't investigate closely why it didn't come off when the screw was taken out. If that piece comes with the pertronix kits, during a swap it has to be installed, so I should be able to get back where I was, no?