Junk Starter

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Thu Mar 03, 2016 8:10 pm

Does anyone have a junk Hitachi starter that they might be willing to take the Pinion Sleeve Spring (2) out of? From the 1971 Parts Manual, it is item #53 in the Hitachi ISO section and #49 in the Hitachi section. The part # is 23443-43600.

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:59 pm

I am also willing to buy your entire junk starter and take the chance the spring is good.

Alternately, anyone with any suggestions on where to buy a spring or somewhere that I might even begin to look? I stopped at the only starter repair shop in the area and he said any spring would do. I tend to doubt that.

jwgreen · Post by **jwgreen** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 10:26 pm

If you take some measurements then you might be able to match it up to something at Century Spring. They seem to have a ton of springs.

Esteban · Post by **Esteban** » Sun Mar 06, 2016 11:18 pm

I think you'll be ok with a similar spring. If any of the two springs is important It's the one that is closer to the gear of the bendix. It absorbs all the energy from the solenoid when it's energized. The second spring sort of balances the system when the bendix returns to the resting position.

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:53 am

jwgreen wrote:If you take some measurements then you might be able to match it up to something at Century Spring. They seem to have a ton of springs.

They have the spring. Unfortunately, they require a $50 order, plus shipping. All for a $4 spring! In total, it wouldn't be a lot less than a new starter shipped free from Amazon.

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 7:56 am

Esteban wrote:I think you'll be ok with a similar spring. If any of the two springs is important It's the one that is closer to the gear of the bendix. It absorbs all the energy from the solenoid when it's energized. The second spring sort of balances the system when the bendix returns to the resting position.

By the sounds of it then, this spring likely isn't the culprit in my occasional grinding?

Unfortunately, I haven't had any luck even finding something similar.

Esteban · Post by **Esteban** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:25 am

mtnPatrol wrote:
Esteban wrote:I think you'll be ok with a similar spring. If any of the two springs is important It's the one that is closer to the gear of the bendix. It absorbs all the energy from the solenoid when it's energized. The second spring sort of balances the system when the bendix returns to the resting position.
By the sounds of it then, this spring likely isn't the culprit in my occasional grinding?

Unfortunately, I haven't had any luck even finding something similar.

I think that your initial thought that the broken spring could have something to do with the grinding noise still holds. Maybe the broken spring in the back of the drive gear mechanism is making the shift lever move more than needed when returning to it's resting position. It is probable that because of that, once the solenoid actuates, it has to move a longer travel distance, and the starter might be rotating before the drive gear is engaged in the flywheel, producing the grinding noise. In a normal operation, the drive gear will be engaged first, a fraction of a second before the starter rotates. This is mere speculation, but I'll be inclined to bet some money on it.

Please note that the solenoid attachment to the lever is adjustable in its position. This is giving me a clue that probably the broken spring does affect the operation and is causing the grinding noise.

What diameter is the broken spring, and what length do you think it needs to be?

To clarify some terminology,I found the following:

The name Bendix gear strictly applies to the spiral drive mechanism of an inertia-type starter. However, the term is sometimes used for the pre-engaged starter mechanism.

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 5:57 pm

The spring should about 5 coils and 1" in free length. It is only about 1/16"+ shorter than it should be. Mind you, measurements were done with a tape measure. I don't have any more precise instruments. Here is my best guess at something really close, with o.d., i.d., and wire diameter: https://www.centuryspring.com/Store/ite ... mber=11918.

Are you thinking to adjust the solenoid arm to compensate?

I stopped at a couple of additional spots today looking for a spring with no luck. One guy down in Asheville is a long-time starter specialist, though only works on American, and thought it wasn't a big concern. He thought it was more likely the pinion or flywheel teeth. I wish I had brought my pinion gear with me to show him. The teeth on it are definitely worn but I don't know if enough to cause the issue. I haven't closely checked my flywheel because I can live with the issue before going ahead to replace it!

Esteban · Post by **Esteban** » Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:13 pm

mtnPatrol wrote:The spring should about 5 coils and 1" in free length. It is only about 1/16"+ shorter than it should be. Mind you, measurements were done with a tape measure. I don't have any more precise instruments. Here is my best guess at something really close, with o.d., i.d., and wire diameter: https://www.centuryspring.com/Store/ite ... mber=11918.

Are you thinking to adjust the solenoid arm to compensate?

I will not touch the solenoid arm until everything is back to work. Then you can check if the solenoid is pushing (with the shift lever) the drive gear all the way out. The Service Manual doesn't mention how far out it has to go, but I've checked some websites that mention a clearance of about 0.025". I'll check tomorrow since I saved that link at the office.

The spring from the link looks good. My guess is that the other spring is probably the same type with a different length. Please note the following data from the Century Spring link you posted:
CSC Stock # 11918

Rate (lbs/in) 4.100
Sugg. Max Defl. (in) 0.700
Sugg. Max Load (lbs) 2.900

You can test the other spring to find out its rate. It can be a little difficult or cumbersome, but basically you have to measure how much it deflects under a certain load. For instance, I found a spring from the fuel filter, and under a half gallon of milk, it compressed 0.79". A half gallon of milk weights ~ 4.3 pounds. So the rate for my spring will be:
4.3 lbs / 0.79" = 5.44 lbs/in

The Rate is how much force you need to deflect a certain length. Both of these springs are a little weak, since you can compress them easily with your fingers. Maybe that will start giving you an idea of the other one.

Now regarding the condition of the teeth, I can only rely on my own experience with my starter. Years ago (1984) the teeth showed enough wear due to more than 150k miles on it. There was no spares of the drive gear at that time, so I called good. My starter had work for over 300k miles by now. It does misses sometimes and make the grinding noise. I just live with it. A pro will tell you that you need to change.

I'm sure that after a good cleaning and with the spring replaced, yours will be good to go until your grandsons start tweaking with it...

As you see, my spring is a little stronger than the one from the link.

mtnPatrol · Post by **mtnPatrol** » Tue Mar 08, 2016 12:30 am

That is super helpful advice on a backyard way to measure spring rate. Thank you.

From what I could gather, based on the measurements I took (free length, coils, id, od, wire diameter) you are left with a pretty narrow range of resulting spring rates.

I'm going to pop back over to the starter thread (http://www.60patrol.com/forum/viewtopic ... 6&start=15) for some follow-up.

60Patrol

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